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Greg Bernhardt
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Posted - 01/15/2003 :  06:16:35  Show Profile Send a private Message  Visit Greg Bernhardt's Homepage  Send Greg Bernhardt an ICQ Message  Send Greg Bernhardt an instant message
"For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."

Can anyone explain to me what this means?

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StumpBroke
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Posted - 01/15/2003 :  15:12:29  Show Profile  Send a private Message
Oh boy, first off you should know that the bible can be interpretted in many ways. This means no one answer is going to satisfy everyone. The passage means that you must believe in Jesus with your heart (that he is/was the son of God). The other part is that you must confess with your mouth in order to be saved. In short, you believe with the heart and confess with the mouth. Together they may be your salvation.



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lwsleeth
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Posted - 01/15/2003 :  19:44:56  Show Profile  Send a private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Greg Bernhardt:
"For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."

Can anyone explain to me what this means?



I think there are two sorts of answers to your question: theological and historical. The theological answer is the most simple because it avoids the necessity of satisfying details of the historical context in which it was written. But the historical answer, in my opinion, is what best explains what you are asking. I wish that answer were simple, but it isn’t. To really understand the quote you have to know the overall situation at the time. (In threads at PF I am sure you have seen how it helps to interpret some single element of relativity by discussing it within the overall context in relativity theory.) I will do my best to abbreviate this explanation, and will understand completely if you aren’t interested enough to go so far into it as I‘ve taken it. Also, I don’t know if it makes any difference to you but I am not a Christian (though I do have great respect for Jesus, as well as the Buddha and others). Biblical times and events are fascinating to me for reasons this thread isn’t about, so I will just stick to trying to interpret that quote.

The quote you cite is taken from a letter written by Paul to the Christian congregation in Rome. In later times the Roman epistle comes to be the most influential writing in the development of Christian theology because of all Paul’s letters, it is the clearest expression of his views. But keep in mind that when Paul wrote any of his letters, he had no idea that millions of people would be reading and interpreting them for centuries to come. Paul is strictly addressing specific circumstances which existed in each community.

The reason the Roman letter is so clear seems to be because it is the only letter we have of Paul’s which is not written to a Christian community he personally started. In Paul’s other letters he is guiding, reprimanding, correcting, praising, and reiterating the themes he’d already discussed with them. But the Roman community had never met Paul, so his letter to them is a very carefully fashioned introduction to, and defense of, his theology. Many scholars believe Paul was writing in preparation for a visit there, and that he was eager to make his influence felt with the Romans as he had elsewhere. It is also believed Paul was about to undertake a mission to western provinces like Spain, and was hoping for financial support from the Romans for that work.

So what was Paul explaining and defending?

The first Christians were Jewish converts living in the Diaspora communities that were spread around the Mediterranean. Paul would travel to them, be welcomed to speak as a guest in the local synagogue (as was the custom), and would deliver his (very Jewish) message that the messiah had come. On occasion he was beaten and stoned for his efforts. Usually some Jews accepted his interpretation, but many did not and so Paul would then also preach to non-Jewish persons living in the locality – the gentiles (or, as Paul often called non-Jews, “Greeks”). Eventually a number of Christian communities were established which had a mix of converted Jews and gentiles.

An intense disagreement arose early concerning whether gentiles, before being accepted as Christian, first had to satisfy Jewish requirements (which essentially meant circumcision for males, and obeying Jewish Law). Paul found himself most in opposition to the Jerusalem Christians where Peter was very influential. They lived tiptoeing on eggshells, trying not to upset Jewish authorities there; this probably contributed to their opposition to Paul’s assertion that gentiles did not have to undergo circumcision or obey Jewish Law, but simply through faith in Christ could attain salvation. Eventually Paul had it his way, but he continued to have such disputes with Diaspora Jewish converts.

While gentiles were not bound by Jewish Law, Paul still wanted Jewish scripture to be relevant, especially for the Jewish converts. So the quote that you cite Greg is taken out of a larger argument Paul is making, one that is mostly aimed at the Jewish converts in the Roman community. Paul understands very well the practice of Jews using scripture to justify one’s points, and so he develops a careful, step-by-step, scriptural argument. This argument actually begins with chapter nine and continues through chapter eleven. (You’ve quoted from the King James translation, and the archaic language there makes it harder to understand; if you have access to the “Revised English Bible” I believe you will get a better translation.)

Paul’s argument was designed to reconcile Jewish theology of being the chosen people with the fact that most Jews were not accepting Jesus as the Messiah; the implication was that spokespersons for the old religious ways were not qualified to speak for God. He presents scripturally-sophisticated points to show that salvation is attained by faith and not by acts, which finally led to his statement in 10:10. That quote is actually paraphrasing words traditionally attributed to Moses in Deuteronomy 30:14. Essentially Paul is arguing that faith is only real if one sincerely feels it in one’s heart; no amount of religious acts can compensate for that heartfelt sincerity and, in fact, that is exactly why some Jews have fallen from grace (for acting devoted without being sincere). The part that says “confession on the lips leads to salvation,” most likely refers to Paul’s method of initiating new Christians (and their continuing reaffirmation of faith), which was to heartfully express one’s acceptance of Jesus as the Christ and one’s personal Savior.

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“Do you suppose that I am one who learns a great deal and remembers it? No, I have a thread that runs through it all.” Confucius

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Edited by - lwsleeth on 01/16/2003 04:34:49
Artman
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Posted - 01/15/2003 :  20:52:50  Show Profile  Send a private Message
Excellent reply, lwsleeth.



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Pokemon999
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Posted - 02/27/2003 :  04:38:22  Show Profile  Send a private Message
Paul said this during the Roman's dominion time, with the risk of getting his head chopped off because you can only call Caesar Lord.
Calling Jesus Lord will be an offence against Roman's law and risk your life.

The scripture does not mean it is so simple to gain salvation by confessing Jesus with mouth!

You must put your whole life on the altar and follow every commandment of God, any how, salavation is by grace, our acts are just the reflection of whether we are truly saved or not.

_____________________
Patience yields stamina.
(I'm Daniel C. Dennett)

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Iacchus32
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Posted - 03/05/2003 :  10:32:25  Show Profile  Send a private Message  Visit Iacchus32's Homepage
quote:
Originally posted by Greg Bernhardt:

"For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."

Can anyone explain to me what this means?


If in fact you profess that which is in your heart, if it be righteousness, then righteousness becomes understood and a means of salvation for yourself and others. Meaning, we all come to salvation through righteousness.

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Edited by - Iacchus32 on 03/05/2003 10:45:13
   

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