| Author |
 Topic  |
|
MajinVegeta
Visible Light Wave
USA
676 Posts |
 Posted - 02/15/2003 : 00:33:02
Why do Christians believe God exists? How do they argue He does? On that matter, why does anyone believe that an entity such as a god exists?
What is a god?www.dbzsc.com/vegeta34.jpg
Alert Mentor now
Edited by - MajinVegeta on 02/17/2003 02:30:33
|
MajinVegeta
Visible Light Wave
USA
676 Posts |
 Posted - 02/15/2003 : 00:41:49
Hi MajinVegeta, (i know this sounds silly...replying to myself like this..)
I happen to believe God exists because the universe HAD to be started some way. I believe the BB occured, but what started it? Yes there was a singularity.....but the question lingers, Where did the singularity come from? Where did universal laws get their standard-ness?
People say God can't exist because there isn't any evidence. If He had evidence of His existence, then some cults/individuals/churchs would start to worship the evidence instead of the real One they should be worshiping. Besides, He's in a different realm, so how can we, so limited mortals that we are even think about trying to COMPLELTLEY understand Him?I'd love to hear contradictory ideas; that's whats most fun. So BRING IT ON!! www.dbzsc.com/vegeta34.jpg
Alert Mentor now
|
BoulderHead
Gamma Wave
Canada
2364 Posts |
 Posted - 02/15/2003 : 01:03:53
quote:
.....I happen to believe God exists because the universe HAD to be started some way. I believe the BB occured, but what started it? Yes there was a singularity.....but the question lingers, Where did the singularity come from? Where did universal laws get their standard-ness?
People say God can't exist because there isn't any evidence. If He had evidence of His existence, then some cults/individuals/churchs would start to worship the evidence instead of the real One they should be worshiping. Besides, He's in a different realm, so how can we, so limited mortals that we are even think about trying to COMPLELTLEY understand Him?
Perhaps you would now like to explain why you believe in the 'Christian' god, or are you not Christian?Conservative, n. A statesman who is enamored of existing evils, as distinguished from the liberal, who wishes to replace them with others.
-- Ambrose Bierce
Alert Mentor now
Edited by - BoulderHead on 02/15/2003 01:06:10
|
MajinVegeta
Visible Light Wave
USA
676 Posts |
Posted - 02/15/2003 : 01:23:26
[sigh]I CONFESS!!(this is a big moment for me):
What I've said, on my second post is what I've been thought. You could only describe the reason of your belief in God using these unasnwered questions usually pertaining to the BB, and virtual things. I am a devout Christian, but what bothers me is how a belief in a god isn't substantiated enough in the sense that all the "substantiated evidence" lies in unanswered questions such as the afformentioned. In order to find out why others believe in God/a god, and to broaden my reasons, I started this thread.
There's logic that is used, but its not convinving. I've stimulated a constant scenario: Someone asks me, "Why should I believe in God?" The truth is I really don't have an explanation as to why---no, I mean the reason, the evidence which makes you want to believe in a god. But then, it hits me; there are aniceint records found of Jesus, his apostles, and the Bible's predictions comming true. Someone will deny this. Then what? I can't carbon date the evidence(I don't know how), so does that mean I have to show the carbon dated results?
Can anyone understand where I'm comming from? I've been stressing over this for such a long time, that I've become speechless about it. So, you can understand my desperation?
Does it sound like I'm doubting my Christian faith??(I really want an answer to this one).www.dbzsc.com/vegeta34.jpg
Alert Mentor now
|
MajinVegeta
Visible Light Wave
USA
676 Posts |
 Posted - 02/15/2003 : 01:32:52
Side note:
I've noticed some grammatical errors pertaining to the usage of "God". Okay, God can't be capatalized in some occasions, while not in others. I don't know the terms to use so I'll give an example:
(a.) Can a god exist?
- "a" makes "god" general, so it's not a name, but a reference.
(b.) I believe God exists.
- since there isn't a word before the word "God" that refers to "God"
such as "a" or "the", then that indicates one must capatalize "God"
because it is now a name.www.dbzsc.com/vegeta34.jpg
Alert Mentor now
|
Zero
PF Mentor
USA
5996 Posts |
Posted - 02/15/2003 : 01:38:46
I wonder...can we really base a belief on a 'fill in the blank' mentality? We don't have an absolute answer on teh origin of teh universe, therefore, we 'fill in' a god or gods?******************************
A truly open mind has to be open to the possibility that a radical idea, however exciting, may prove to be a load of codswallop!
Alert Mentor now
|
MajinVegeta
Visible Light Wave
USA
676 Posts |
Posted - 02/15/2003 : 01:48:49
Zero: That's like customizing the universe. It seems pretty obvious(to me) that that's not the case. Groups of people disagree on the same thing, and most of them have their beliefs based on the Bible.www.dbzsc.com/vegeta34.jpg
Alert Mentor now
|
BoulderHead
Gamma Wave
Canada
2364 Posts |
Posted - 02/15/2003 : 02:02:10
quote:
But then, it hits me; there are aniceint records found of Jesus, his apostles, and the Bible's predictions comming true. Someone will deny this.
There isn't really a need to deny it. Personally, I don't hold much stock in predictions. Any person with average intelligence should be able to make them. Some will come true, others will not. To the 'true believer' those which have not can easily be explained away as not having happened yet or perhaps they happened but we just haven't been able to make the connection for some reason. You might also ask yourself "Was it really the unfolding of so many uncanny predictions that caused me to believe?"
For the overwhelming bulk of believers the answer to that question is No. The real truth to their belief rests elsewhere and there is no reason for me to go into all of that at this time.
quote:
Then what? I can't carbon date the evidence(I don't know how), so does that mean I have to show the carbon dated results?
You do not have to present anything at all. I don’t consider it your job to convince the world that what you have chosen to believe is supported by empirical evidence, you may feel differently about that of course.
The ability to convince others that our views are worthy brings with it a reassurance that we are correct in what we believe. I cannot help but feel that the person trying so desperately to convince me isn’t really, deep inside, a doubter. I pity them for needing such a wretch as myself to believe them and wish that somehow I could bring comfort to their tortured souls, just as I wish they could bring comfort to my own.
Conservative, n. A statesman who is enamored of existing evils, as distinguished from the liberal, who wishes to replace them with others.
-- Ambrose Bierce
Alert Mentor now
|
FZ
Gamma Wave
United Kingdom
2222 Posts |
Posted - 02/15/2003 : 02:06:30
Ok, considering the lack of response I'll play Devil's advocate and be a christian for a while. (Irony...) [pedantic]BTW, it's coming, not comming. [/pedantic]
quote:
But then, it hits me; there are aniceint records found of Jesus, his apostles, and the Bible's predictions comming true.
Now you are speaking like a fundamentalist. Though we can find as many truths as we can, we will also find many clear inaccuracies. The bible is to be taken metaphorically if it is to be consistent with what can be objectively confirmed. In general, it is not safe to use biblical things in a straight factual context. The bible is not a history book. (though parts can be historically accurate) In the end, it is written by man, and thus is still flawed. You should not idolise the bible.
It is true that there are missing points in science, and God can fit in the blanks. But the blanks are rapidly vanishing. So where does that leave us with? God as the creator of the physical laws. God in this way did not individually make everything as a straight reading of genesis arises, but generated the inherent order in the universe, defined the ideas of logic that makes things work. They are not perfect, but true beauty requires imperfection.
Does it not say - thou shall not test your God? The only way God exists is as separate from this earth, perhaps this universe. That is the cost of omnipotence and omniscience, for involvement hides. That was the purpose of Christ. To prove God by clutching at straws for evidence, through rejection of secular science is an insult to everybody's intelligence.
So why do we believe? Because ultimately, we want a sense of optimism. We want a sense of hope and forgiveness for those who left us. We have nothing to lose. We feel christianity best reflects the values and society we hold dear, and offers with it a chance to transcend the doomed slavishness of our existences. In the end, we may be wrong, but as a matter of faith, which is better: The little lie that draws a smile, or the cold facts that draw a tear?-------------
"....this will be one battle we will regret. Mark my words..."
FZ 11/14/2002
Alert Mentor now
|
MajinVegeta
Visible Light Wave
USA
676 Posts |
Posted - 02/15/2003 : 02:13:28
quote:
In the end, it is written by man, and thus is still flawed.
Actually, in Christian belief, it was God who instructed the prophets who subsequently wrote the Bible, according to God's instruction. It isn't flawed.
And its just your opinion. www.dbzsc.com/vegeta34.jpg
Alert Mentor now
|
BoulderHead
Gamma Wave
Canada
2364 Posts |
Posted - 02/15/2003 : 02:43:24
quote:
Side note:
I've noticed some grammatical errors pertaining to the usage of "God". Okay, God can't be capatalized in some occasions, while not in others. I don't know the terms to use so I'll give an example:
(a.) Can a god exist?
- "a" makes "god" general, so it's not a name, but a reference.(b.) I believe God exists.
- since there isn't a word before the word "God" that refers to "God"
such as "a" or "the", then that indicates one must capatalize "God"
because it is now a name.
Ah, someone notices… I like that. There are other reasons to use a capital verses a lowercase G. Perhaps you might enjoy researching this rather than my explaining it.
Conservative, n. A statesman who is enamored of existing evils, as distinguished from the liberal, who wishes to replace them with others.
-- Ambrose Bierce
Alert Mentor now
|
FZ
Gamma Wave
United Kingdom
2222 Posts |
Posted - 02/15/2003 : 13:55:54
Actually no. It written by God through the vessel of man, and designed to be read by men. Thus, it does have to be the absolute truth, but the truth as can be understood by early readers, as was understood by the prophets themselves. God did not exactly dictate the words, but delivered the message by images etc for the prophets to interpret.Ok.... I'll stop playing Devil's Advocate...
Isn't it true that by arguing that the Bible is directly from God, you set up God inevitably as a deceiver since there are parts of the old testament which are simply wrong? -------------
"....this will be one battle we will regret. Mark my words..."
FZ 11/14/2002
Alert Mentor now
Edited by - FZ on 02/15/2003 14:09:47
|
MajinVegeta
Visible Light Wave
USA
676 Posts |
Posted - 02/15/2003 : 20:23:08
FZ:
Some parts of the bible aren't wrong, niether is the bible. People say that because they don't understand exactly what the bible means. I remember reading Revelation for the first time; I thought that part of the bible was factitious. But, when I read it more, studied what it was saying, I began to understand the truth behind it. For example, in Revelation, a beast with 7 horns is spoken of. The beast with seven horns is a representation of something. If you look in the Old Testament, you find that a similar representation is used, and the representation is defined. This time, there is a statue with 7 types of metals, gold, copper, silver etc. The 7 groups represent kingdoms: Rome, Assyria, Greece etc.
What do you find wrong, FZ? Give me a scripture/example and I'll see if I can interrpret it.www.dbzsc.com/vegeta34.jpg
Alert Mentor now
|
FZ
Gamma Wave
United Kingdom
2222 Posts |
Posted - 02/17/2003 : 01:04:51
Off the top of my head: God stopping the sun for a number of hours for some guy. Jonah being in a whale and suriving. (also references are given to it being called fish) Rainbow given as gift from God. A tree tall enough to be seen from all parts of the world. A minor battle involving almost 1million men and 500,000 deaths. A tower reaching up to heaven. A firmament in the sky/ doors that open/close to allow rain. Flawed description of sequence of evolution.-------------
"....this will be one battle we will regret. Mark my words..."
FZ 11/14/2002
Alert Mentor now
|
MajinVegeta
Visible Light Wave
USA
676 Posts |
Posted - 02/17/2003 : 02:29:26
Excuse you. There are no references of a tower reaching to heaven. Furthermore, all that you've been talking about is also based on different representations.
Who said you where in charge of making decisions of what God should do and questioning Him, and, last but not least, whether or not something makes sense.
www.dbzsc.com/vegeta34.jpg
Alert Mentor now
|
BoulderHead
Gamma Wave
Canada
2364 Posts |
Posted - 02/17/2003 : 04:00:05
quote:
Who said you where in charge of making decisions of what God should do and questioning Him, and, last but not least, whether or not something makes sense.
Genesis 3:22 gives man the ability to make such calls…… Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil…
Since we are like God in this respect I must ask what more authority do you think anyone needs?Conservative, n. A statesman who is enamored of existing evils, as distinguished from the liberal, who wishes to replace them with others.
-- Ambrose Bierce
Alert Mentor now
|
Audacity Dan
X-Ray Wave
USA
1773 Posts |
Posted - 02/17/2003 : 07:59:43
quote:
Originally posted by MajinVegeta:
Excuse you. There are no references of a tower reaching to heaven.
The Tower of Babel. I don't think that it actually reached heaven, because god feared it and stopped its progress, and everyone started talking in tongues or something like that. I also seriously doubt that flying animals came before land animals. -----------------------------------------------------
Should I spend time thinking about what I should spend time thinking about?
Alert Mentor now
|
MajinVegeta
Visible Light Wave
USA
676 Posts |
Posted - 02/17/2003 : 20:03:14
Audicity Dan: The Tower Of Babel(I knew someone was going to mention that) was not going to touch the sky or whatever. It was simply going to be really tall, not literally touch the sky, as common sense would tell us. God never feared it, He knew the humans were building it to gain pride, which would eventually lead to some bad omen(as the people became more competitive about it). So he destroyed it, and had them talk in different languages so they couldn't work together. Boulderhead: Are you trying to say that we are of equal merit, relative to God??!! I looked the scripture up and here is what it says:
"And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become one of us, to know good and evil and now lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat and live forever:..." (it goes on to verse 23.)
Its just saying that we know good and evil, the basics. But that does not mean we have power(as God), perfection or anything to make us as great as God. And, although the scriputure says man will live forever, that's an obvious (no, not error) eleboration with meaning.
Furthermore, I am induced to point out that mainly the first chapters of creation in Genisis speak of man being created in the image of God. This simply means our basic structure is in His image, not our neural network, not our perfection just our structure. www.dbzsc.com/vegeta34.jpg
Alert Mentor now
|
BoulderHead
Gamma Wave
Canada
2364 Posts |
Posted - 02/17/2003 : 20:15:51
quote:
Boulderhead: Are you trying to say that we are of equal merit, relative to God??!! I looked the scripture up and here is what it says:
"And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become one of us, to know good and evil and now lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat and live forever:..." (it goes on to verse 23.)
I’m saying that in one aspect, and one aspect alone, the Bible suggests it.
quote:
Its just saying that we know good and evil, the basics.
Incorrect, it says that in the capacity to know good and evil, man is like God. There is no mention that man only knows a few ‘basics’ of good and evil. Man knows it like God knows it.
quote:
But that does not mean we have power(as God), perfection or anything to make us as great as God. And, although the scriputure says man will live forever, that's an obvious (no, not error) eleboration with meaning.
This is all beside the point for man doesn’t have to be all-powerful to have the knowledge of good and evil. Man doesn’t even have to be good. Man does have the ability to know when he is being evil, according to this book.
quote:
Furthermore, I am induced to point out that mainly the first chapters of creation in Genisis speak of man being created in the image of God. This simply means our basic structure is in His image, not our neural network, not our perfection just our structure.
Again, this is beside the point. Man may be too weak-willed to always be ‘good’, unlike God, but like God man recognizes the difference between good and evil. That is why man can question the goodness or evilness of God.
Conservative, n. A statesman who is enamored of existing evils, as distinguished from the liberal, who wishes to replace them with others.
-- Ambrose Bierce
Alert Mentor now
|
MajinVegeta
Visible Light Wave
USA
676 Posts |
Posted - 02/17/2003 : 20:55:28
quote:
That is why man can question the goodness or evilness of God.
How can man question an emeasurably superior being? We're imperfect, God is perfect and the odds tell us our questioning will be in vain. What if a worm questioned your actions toward evacuating a seal in distress into a large van? The worm might think it to be an evil deed inflicted upon that seal and a sign of threatfulness towards other living things. www.dbzsc.com/vegeta34.jpg
Alert Mentor now
|
BoulderHead
Gamma Wave
Canada
2364 Posts |
Posted - 02/17/2003 : 21:04:44
quote:
How can man question an emeasurably superior being? We're imperfect, God is perfect and the odds tell us our questioning will be in vain. What if a worm questioned your actions toward evacuating a seal in distress into a large van? The worm might think it to be an evil deed inflicted upon that seal and a sign of threatfulness towards other living things.
If the worm had my capacity to know good from evil then the worm has every ‘right’ to question my actions.Conservative, n. A statesman who is enamored of existing evils, as distinguished from the liberal, who wishes to replace them with others.
-- Ambrose Bierce
Alert Mentor now
|
|
