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Mentat
X-Ray Wave


USA
1269 Posts
Posted - 02/24/2003 :  19:11:29  Show Profile Send a private Message
I guess I wouldn't have this particular problem with my understanding of Evolution, if it wasn't for some of the posts that I have read here on the PFs. The problem with my understanding, that I refer to, is this:

I have always heard that when a species evolves a "new" trait, it is due to some form of mutation (when the mutation occurs in the animal is irrelevant, provided it pass the "new" trait on to it's offspring). Whether that "new" trait is useful, or not, is supposed to be basically up to chance (except when sexual selection is involved). However, it appears to me that a lot of people think of these animals as evolving these new traits, because of the necessity.

Should I be thinking of it this way as well? If so, what is it that "tells" the animal that it should evolve, and what is it that causes the animal to do so appropriately? Also (and this point is the reason for the title of the thread), why are there so many seemingly "unnecessary" traits, that would not have evolved out of necessity?

Any help on this would be appreciated.



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FZ
Gamma Wave


United Kingdom
2222 Posts
Posted - 02/24/2003 :  22:10:46  Show Profile  Send a private Message
Nothing tells the animal to evolve. It is a natural process that occurs all the time. An capability of adaptation is certainly an advantage.

What unneccessary traits? Characteristics randomly emerge. Characteristics are discriminated against when they have an disadvantage in terms of additional resources etc. It takes longer for it to disappear than to appear...


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"....this will be one battle we will regret. Mark my words..."
FZ 11/14/2002

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Phobos
PF Mentor


USA
1417 Posts
Posted - 02/24/2003 :  23:43:03  Show Profile  Send a private Message
Think of it this way, mutation (being essentially random) sets life forms down paths in all* directions, but natural selection (non-random) is a seive that only allows some paths to succeed.

Life forms don't envision a need and then evolve toward that need. They radiate in many directions and the environmental conditions dictate which group does the best. The conditions sculpt (direct) the evolution.

When someone is describing past events non-technically, they may say something like "the ice age began so creature X evolved thicker fur". They don't mean it was the creature's idea to do so. They mean that among the population of creature X there was already variation in fur thickness and the cooler temperatures resulted in the furrier ones to fare better than the less furry ones. The result was that over time, the population's average specimen had thicker fur than the population's average ancestor.

* - well, not literally "all"....some paths are more likely than others

By the way, mutation is not the only way to obtain new traits. There's also recombination (sexual mixing among a population) and gene flow (sudden mixing of previously separated populations).

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In the fabric of space and in the nature of matter, as in a great work of art, there is, written small, the artist’s signature. (from Sagan's "Contact")

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LURCH_001
Visible Light Wave


USA
588 Posts
Posted - 02/25/2003 :  00:34:38  Show Profile  Send a private Message
I recall reading some years ago that experimentation on bacteria had returned an interesting result. It would seem that when resources are running low, the rate of mutation increases. IOW, when a population of bacteria have exhausted their food supply, and are starving, the malnutrition they experience results in less reliable gene and copying.

I may not have all the details perfect, so bare with me. A population of a certain type of bacteria were placed in a growth medium rich in two kinds of simple sugars (a glucose and a fructose, I believe). The type of bacteria used was known to be capable of metabolizing only one type of sugar (the glucose, let's say). When all the glucose was used up, and the population began to starve, reproduction of DNA strands became unstable. This resulted in a sudden "burst" of mutations. Some of these were able to metabolize fructose, and became a new species.

Is anyone else here are familiar with the experiment to which I'm referring?

Why do they call it a FIXED income, when I'm always BROKE ?!

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Edited by - LURCH_001 on 02/25/2003 00:36:31
Another God
X-Ray Wave


Australia
1683 Posts
Posted - 02/25/2003 :  11:54:31  Show Profile  Send a private Message  Send Another God an ICQ Message
I am not familiar with that particular experiment, but I do know that if you plate bacteria and let them grow into their colonies, you have a plate of billions of bacteria in front of you. If you then clone that plate onto another plate with harsher conditions, typically one or two colonies will still form on the harsh plate simply because you only need one or two of the billions of bacteria to have a lucky mutation.

Since Fructose catabolism is not too different from glucose metabolism, it is reasonable to expect at least one bacteria to aquire this mutation.

And the idea of mutations to increase in frequency during times of hardship also seems quite reasonable on its own merits. Under starvation a lot changes in all cells. It would be evolutionarily advantages to adapt to stresses by allowing your species to evolve faster as such....

Prove me wrong, I might learn something.

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Phobos
PF Mentor


USA
1417 Posts
Posted - 02/25/2003 :  19:46:47  Show Profile  Send a private Message
LURCH - I've heard of that or similar research too. In times of stress, mutation rates increase in bacteria. And perhaps gene swapping too. I don't recall the reference at the moment. If I think of it, I'll post it here.

--------------------------
In the fabric of space and in the nature of matter, as in a great work of art, there is, written small, the artist’s signature. (from Sagan's "Contact")

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Mentat
X-Ray Wave


USA
1269 Posts
Posted - 02/25/2003 :  20:24:11  Show Profile  Send a private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Phobos:
Think of it this way, mutation (being essentially random) sets life forms down paths in all* directions, but natural selection (non-random) is a seive that only allows some paths to succeed.

Life forms don't envision a need and then evolve toward that need. They radiate in many directions and the environmental conditions dictate which group does the best. The conditions sculpt (direct) the evolution.

When someone is describing past events non-technically, they may say something like "the ice age began so creature X evolved thicker fur". They don't mean it was the creature's idea to do so. They mean that among the population of creature X there was already variation in fur thickness and the cooler temperatures resulted in the furrier ones to fare better than the less furry ones. The result was that over time, the population's average specimen had thicker fur than the population's average ancestor.

* - well, not literally "all"....some paths are more likely than others

By the way, mutation is not the only way to obtain new traits. There's also recombination (sexual mixing among a population) and gene flow (sudden mixing of previously separated populations).

--------------------------
In the fabric of space and in the nature of matter, as in a great work of art, there is, written small, the artist’s signature. (from Sagan's "Contact")


That's how I've always looked at it. However, some of the members start asking question about why we still do something (or enjoy something) if it has not advantage for us, and these questions throw me off.



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