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JackHoyes
Radio Wave
United Kingdom
18 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2003 : 09:21:58
Hi! I'm not sure how stupid this question may seem but I was wondering what determines the frequencies of light (and therefore the colour of the object) reflected by the atoms either on an atomic or subatomic level.
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ObsessiveMathsFreak
Infrared Wave
Burkina Faso (Upper Volta)
282 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2003 : 10:58:13
Light is made up of photons.The energy of a photon of light, or more generally, electro-magnetic radiation, is determined by its frequency. E = hf E is energy, f is frequency, and h is a constant, planks constant. so f = E/h so yo could say that a photon's frequency is determined by its energy. So the more energy you give it, the higher its frequency will be. Blue light has more energy than red light. "May the maths be with you"
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JackHoyes
Radio Wave
United Kingdom
18 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2003 : 12:12:43
Thanks 'obsessivemathsfreak' that helped alot although I was actualy wondering what determines the frequency of light absorbed by the atoms of a particular substance? Why does it differ and so there are both green objects and red objects for example?
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njorl
Visible Light Wave

USA
725 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2003 : 13:57:56
It can be a very long explanation. I'll try to simplify it without going too far.The electrons around the nucleus of an atom can not just do any old thing they want. There are discrete, different orbitals that they can occupy. Each of these orbitals has a different energy associated with it. When light strikes an electron, the electron may transition from one orbital to another, absorbing the photon. It might reflect the photon instead. Right now, I'm looking at a yellow post-it note. White light, comprised of many frequencies, hits the post-it. Most of the non-yellow light is absorbed, most of the yellow light is reflected, do, I see it as yellow. There are a lot of complications that I left out, but this is the jist of it. Njorl "Deceive everyone under 30!" -- um, Me
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JackHoyes
Radio Wave
United Kingdom
18 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2003 : 14:39:49
Thanks njorl you have answered a question that I have contemplated for quite a while! Could anyone tell me what is happening on an atomic or subatomic level when materials fade when exposed to light? From njorl's explaination I guess it has something to to with the electrons.
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russ_watters
Radio Wave
USA
53 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2003 : 15:01:20
I think fading is due to the actual breaking down of the molecules and different molecules absorb/emit different wavelengths of light.
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Integral
PF Mentor
  
USA
2665 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2003 : 15:22:42
As a refinement to Norjl's reply, actually All photons are adsoped by the atom, do not think of the photon striking an electron, instead think of them as being adsorped by an atom. The net effect is to move an electron to a higer energy state. The states available are determined by the atomic structure, in a mirror there are many states very closely spaced, so all visible light photons can be adsorbed, but as soon as they are adsorbed they are reemitted. Emitten photons travel in a completely random direction, some will be readsorbed instantly others will leave the surface of the mirror, but in no perfered direction. The reason we have the "angle of reflection = angle of incidence" law is because that is the mimimun time path between your eye and the mirror. If that law were true at the atomic level then you would only be able to see objects in the mirror from specific view points. Now for non mirrors the atomic structure dictates which photons will be adsorbed. If there is no energy state availble which corresponds to the energy of the photon it will simply pass the atom by. Often a photon will be adsorbed which jumps an electron past several possible energy states, now when the electron decays to it ground state it may take a different path this means that several lower energy photons may be emitted in place of single one adsorbed. This is why objects have color. All adsorbed visible light excites an electron to some state, from the excited state there is a prefered path which all electrons must take, this path will include a transition which corresponds to the color of the object. __________________________ "A Physicist is an atom's way of learning about atoms" G. Wald
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njorl
Visible Light Wave

USA
725 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2003 : 16:13:49
There are lots of devils in the details.  Njorl "Deceive everyone under 30!" -- um, Me
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emu
Radio Wave
Canada
87 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2003 : 16:54:11
The main thing to realize is that each orbital has a different energy associated with it. The energy of the electron in that particular orbit. The difference in energy between orbits determines the energy of the emitted photon. Since its speed is constant, the energy determines the photon's frequency.Where's the beef?
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carsten
Micro Wave
Germany
105 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2003 : 16:55:03
quote: Originally posted by JackHoyes: Could anyone tell me what is happening on an atomic or subatomic level when materials fade when exposed to light? From njorl's explaination I guess it has something to to with the electrons.
To put it very simple, visible light gives the electrons some energy, but not enought to leave the atom/molecule. While UV light (where the photons have more energy) is able to kick electrons out of the atom/molecule, so triggering chemical reactions which destroy molecules.
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STAii
X-Ray Wave
 
Jordan
1376 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2003 : 17:49:00
quote: Originally posted by Integral: The reason we have the "angle of reflection = angle of incidence" law is because that is the mimimun time path between your eye and the mirror.
Can you explain this point further please ? "Don't try to teach colors to a blind person"
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njorl
Visible Light Wave

USA
725 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2003 : 19:05:39
It is Fermat's principle of least time.In reflection, the path of least time is also the path of least distance. Draw a line representing a reflective surface. Make two dots on the same side of the line, like this: point 1 ---------------->.
point 2------------------------------------->. reflective surface_____________________________________________
Now, there are many paths you could draw from one point to another, bouncing off the line, but the one that will be shortest is the one with angle of incidence equalling angle of reflection. Something similar can be done with refration, but it is more complicated. Since in refraction, the two media have different speeds for light, the calculation is more difficult. The minimum path distance would be a straight ine, but the minimum path for time has a bend at the refracting surface, which shortens the path in the slow medium, but lengthens the path in the fast medium. Njorl "Deceive everyone under 30!" -- um, Me
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STAii
X-Ray Wave
 
Jordan
1376 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2003 : 07:21:49
quote: Originally posted by njorl: It is Fermat's principle of least time.In reflection, the path of least time is also the path of least distance. Draw a line representing a reflective surface. Make two dots on the same side of the line, like this: point 1 ---------------->.
point 2------------------------------------->. reflective surface_____________________________________________
Now, there are many paths you could draw from one point to another, bouncing off the line, but the one that will be shortest is the one with angle of incidence equalling angle of reflection. Something similar can be done with refration, but it is more complicated. Since in refraction, the two media have different speeds for light, the calculation is more difficult. The minimum path distance would be a straight ine, but the minimum path for time has a bend at the refracting surface, which shortens the path in the slow medium, but lengthens the path in the fast medium. Njorl
And why would light the shortest line ? I mean the atom's electron absorbed the photon, how does it know that it should re-emit it at a certain moment so that the angles are equal ?"Don't try to teach colors to a blind person"
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alexander
Gamma Wave
  
Russia
3982 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2003 : 20:33:23
quote: Originally posted by Integral:... The states available are determined by the atomic structure, in a mirror there are many states very closely spaced, so all visible light photons can be adsorbed, but as soon as they are adsorbed they are reemitted. Emitten photons travel in a completely random direction, some will be readsorbed instantly others will leave the surface of the mirror, but in no perfered direction. The reason we have the "angle of reflection = angle of incidence" law is because that is the mimimun time path between your eye and the mirror. If that law were true at the atomic level then you would only be able to see objects in the mirror from specific view points.
Hold on, a metal mirror is made of FREE electrons, thus they all are moving IN PHASE with the incident wave. In this case their coherent motion produces secondary oscillating electric field which thus cancels everywhere except one specific direction in which it is seen in phase, and we then call this direction "mirror angle of reflection". Life is chemistry,chemistry is quantum mechanics,quantum mechanics is math.To learn how natural laws,natural forces and natural objects originate from math,click: http://www.emmynoether.com/
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Edited by - alexander on 02/28/2003 20:35:38
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dock
Infrared Wave
Fyro Macedonia
376 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2003 : 22:46:49
E=hf Pure nosense because of counter parts incompatibility.It's same with c=f The wrong thing here is that f as frequency expresses in rote over sec (not even rote PER sec(you cannot even think about one over sec or Hz)).Therefore it wold have to be ct=n , but then the equation is invalid. n=rotes; c=LSpeed
=wave length t=time What is the right answer I don't know at the moment. In this present crysis situation,Goverment is not the solution of our problems-Goverment is the problem dock
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alexander
Gamma Wave
  
Russia
3982 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2003 : 05:16:34
What is a rote?Life is chemistry,chemistry is quantum mechanics,quantum mechanics is math.To learn how natural laws,natural forces and natural objects originate from math,click: http://www.emmynoether.com/
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