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Originally posted by Zero:
I am willing to allow for the sake of argument that some creator started the big bang, but there is no reason to believe that it has done anything at all since.

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Originally posted by Zero:
I second that, Stephen!

Rub her feet--L.Long

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I see... the long, cold dark-stare. Fairy nuff.

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Originally posted by lifegazer:

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Originally posted by Zero:
I am willing to allow for the sake of argument that some creator started the big bang, but there is no reason to believe that it has done anything at all since.

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Well, sorry if you think that I'm ganging up on you again, but this statement is incorrect...
If 'God' instigated the 'first day' and all subsequent days are resultant effects of 'day 1', then logically, 'the creator' holds sole-responsibility for everything that has ever-since happened.
This means that such a creator has done 'everything' since, not nothing - because 'day 1' was entirely responsible for day 2, which was entirely responsible for day 3, which was entirely... right upto 'today'.
There are no other causes for 'today' that were not instigated on 'day 1'. To claim that there are means that any subsequent day is entirely dependent of the effects of the previous day. Since we can all agree that Monday ALWAYS follows a Sunday, I would hope that you might agree with me, this time.

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Originally posted by Zero:
hmmm....my statement is correct...for the reasons you state. My point is that if there is a "primal cause" that was all knowing and all powerful, then it doesn't have to go back and "tweak" things later on.

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The point that I was making is that if there was a creator, it could have programmed everything into the starting conditions, and then let it go, knowing full well the results, without ever having to make another appearance. Everything that the universe is now was inherent in the first moment. I think we are basically saying the same thing...and it proves that not everybody disagrees with you just on principle.

F:I.2 DEITY is personalizable as God, is prepersonal and superpersonal in ways not altogether comprehensible by man. Deity is characterized by the quality of unity -- actual or potential -- on all supermaterial levels of reality; and this unifying quality is best comprehended by creatures as divinity.
F:I.3 Deity functions on personal, prepersonal, and superpersonal levels. Total Deity is functional on the following seven levels:
F:I.4 1. Static -- self-contained and self-existent Deity.
F:I.5 2. Potential -- self-willed and self-purposive Deity.
F:I.6 3. Associative -- self-personalized and divinely fraternal Deity.
F:I.7 4. Creative -- self-distributive and divinely revealed Deity.
F:I.8 5. Evolutional -- self-expansive and creature-identified Deity.
F:I.9 6. Supreme -- self-experiential and creature-Creator-unifying Deity.
Deity functioning on the first creature-identificational level as time-space overcontrollers of the grand universe, sometimes designated the Supremacy of Deity.
F:I.10 7. Ultimate -- self-projected and time-space-transcending Deity. Deity omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent. Deity functioning on the second level of unifying divinity expression as effective overcontrollers and absonite upholders of the master universe. As compared with the ministry of the Deities to the grand universe, this absonite function in the master universe is tantamount to universal overcontrol and supersustenance, sometimes called the Ultimacy of Deity.
F:I.11 The finite level of reality is characterized by creature life and time-space limitations. Finite realities may not have endings, but they always have beginnings -- they are created. The Deity level of Supremacy may be conceived as a function in relation to finite existences.
F:I.12 The absonite level of reality is characterized by things and beings without beginnings or endings and by the transcendence of time and space. Absoniters are not created; they are eventuated -- they simply are. The Deity level of Ultimacy connotes a function in relation to absonite realities. No matter in what part of the master universe, whenever time and space are transcended, such an absonite phenomenon is an act of the Ultimacy of Deity.
F:I.13 The absolute level is beginningless, endless, timeless, and spaceless. For example: On Paradise, time and space are nonexistent; the time-space status of Paradise is absolute. This level is Trinity attained, existentially, by the Paradise Deities, but this third level of unifying Deity expression is not fully unified experientially. Whenever, wherever, and however the absolute level of Deity functions, Paradise-absolute values and meanings are manifest.
F:I.14 Deity may be existential, as in the Eternal Son; experiential, as in the Supreme Being; associative, as in God the Sevenfold; undivided, as in the Paradise Trinity.
F:I.15 Deity is the source of all that which is divine. Deity is characteristically and invariably divine, but all that which is divine is not necessarily Deity, though it will be co-ordinated with Deity and will tend towards some phase of unity with Deity -- spiritual, mindal, or personal.

F:I.16 DIVINITY is the characteristic, unifying, and co-ordinating quality of Deity.
F:I.17 Divinity is creature comprehensible as truth, beauty, and goodness; correlated in personality as love, mercy, and ministry; disclosed on impersonal levels as justice, power, and sovereignty.
F:I.18 Divinity may be perfect -- complete -- as on existential and creator levels of Paradise perfection; it may be imperfect, as on experiential and creature levels of time-space evolution; or it may be relative, neither perfect nor imperfect, as on certain Havona levels of existential-experiential relationships.

F:I.19 When we attempt to conceive of perfection in all phases and forms of relativity, we encounter seven conceivable types:

Absolute perfection in all aspects.
Absolute perfection in some phases and relative perfection in all other aspects.
Absolute, relative, and imperfect aspects in varied association.
Absolute perfection in some respects, imperfection in all others.
Absolute perfection in no direction, relative perfection in all manifestations.
Absolute perfection in no phase, relative in some, imperfect in others.
Absolute perfection in no attribute, imperfection in all.
II. GOD
F:II.1 Evolving mortal creatures experience an irresistible urge to symbolize their finite concepts of God. Man's consciousness of moral duty and his spiritual idealism represent a value level -- an experiential reality -- which is difficult of symbolization.
F:II.2 Cosmic consciousness implies the recognition of a First Cause, the one and only uncaused reality. God, the Universal Father, functions on three Deity-personality levels of subinfinite value and relative divinity expression:

Prepersonal -- as in the ministry of the Father fragments, such as the Thought Adjusters.
Personal -- as in the evolutionary experience of created and procreated beings.
Superpersonal -- as in the eventuated existences of certain absonite and associated beings.
F:II.3 GOD is a word symbol designating all personalizations of Deity. The term requires a different definition on each personal level of Deity function and must be still further redefined within each of these levels, as this term may be used to designate the diverse co-ordinate and subordinate personalizations of Deity; for example: the Paradise Creator Sons -- the local universe fathers.
F:II.4 The term God, as we make use of it, may be understood:
F:II.5 By designation -- as God the Father.
F:II.6 By context -- as when used in the discussion of some one deity level or association. When in doubt as to the exact interpretation of the word God, it would be advisable to refer it to the person of the Universal Father.
F:II.7 The term God always denotes personality. Deity may, or may not, refer to divinity personalities.

F:II.8 The word GOD is used, in these papers, with the following meanings:
F:II.9 1. God the Father -- Creator, Controller, and Upholder. The Universal Father, the First Person of Deity.
F:II.10 2. God the Son -- Co-ordinate Creator, Spirit Controller, and Spiritual Administrator. The Eternal Son, the Second Person of Deity.
F:II.11 3. God the Spirit -- Conjoint Actor, Universal Integrator, and Mind Bestower. The Infinite Spirit, the Third Person of Deity.
F:II.12 4. God the Supreme -- the actualizing or evolving God of time and space. Personal Deity associatively realizing the time-space experiential achievement of creature-Creator identity. The Supreme Being is personally experiencing the achievement of Deity unity as the evolving and experiential God of the evolutionary creatures of time and space.
F:II.13 5. God the Sevenfold -- Deity personality anywhere actually functioning in time and space. The personal Paradise Deities and their creative associates functioning in and beyond the borders of the central universe and power-personalizing as the Supreme Being on the first creature level of unifying Deity revelation in time and space. This level, the grand universe, is the sphere of the time-space descension of Paradise personalities in reciprocal association with the time-space ascension of evolutionary creatures.
F:II.14 6. God the Ultimate -- the eventuating God of supertime and transcended space. The second experiential level of unifying Deity manifestation. God the Ultimate implies the attained realization of the synthesized absonite-superpersonal, time-space-transcended, and eventuated-experiential values, co-ordinated on final creative levels of Deity reality.
F:II.15 7. God the Absolute -- the experientializing God of transcended superpersonal values and divinity meanings, now existential as the Deity Absolute. This is the third level of unifying Deity expression and expansion. On this supercreative level, Deity experiences exhaustion of personalizable potential, encounters completion of divinity, and undergoes depletion of capacity for self-revelation to successive and progressive levels of other-personalization. Deity now encounters, impinges upon, and experiences identity with, the Unqualified Absolute. "

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Well, sorry if you think that I'm ganging up on you again, but this statement is incorrect...
If 'God' instigated the 'first day' and all subsequent days are resultant effects of 'day 1', then logically, 'the creator' holds sole-responsibility for everything that has ever-since happened.
This means that such a creator has done 'everything' since, not nothing - because 'day 1' was entirely responsible for day 2, which was entirely responsible for day 3, which was entirely... right upto 'today'.
There are no other causes for 'today' that were not instigated on 'day 1'. To claim that there are means that any subsequent day is entirely dependent of the effects of the previous day. Since we can all agree that Monday ALWAYS follows a Sunday, I would hope that you might agree with me, this time.

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Lifegazer, this is incorrect =) If I sold you drugs, and you took them, whos responsible for your taking of the drug? I didn't put it in your mouth, I simply gave you the oppurtinity, so it is your fault if you take the drugs. If (and that's an emmense if) a God created the universe, then our physical laws shouldn't hold the way they do, there would be more inconsistancies.

So, why does big banf need a "button pusher"?

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According to big bang theory, universe originated as a fluctuation of false vacuum. But fluctuation does not require any cause

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Sounds suspiciously like an uncaused cause.

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Originally posted by alexander:
According to big bang theory, universe originated as a fluctuation of false vacuum. But fluctuation does not require any cause (let alone divine one). Say, you have U atom which sooner or later desintegrates. Does anything cause its spontaneous disintigration at certain moment of time?

So, why does big banf need a "button pusher"?

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Well a theist response would be that God created the expanding bubble of vacuum energy in the first place. The universe did not arise from a quantum fluctuation, but rather our visible universe did. It still needs a vacuum to occur in. It's a prety lame creation act for a God, but if inflation is true, it's all that's left for him to do.